Statins – any one got anything to say about them? | Diabetes Mellitus

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Statins – any one got anything to say about them?

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Question:

I’m 34 years insulin dependant (I refuse to be a ‘type’ but AM dependent on insulin!), for the first time my cholesterol level has gone to 5.3 but as my HBA1C was also up at 8.5 – this can effect the cholesterol result. I also pass the grand old age of 50 next month and my GP has immediately jumped on the "Statins" bandwagon – no other counselling or trying diets and levelling the HBA1C out – just says I need statins. I’m not too happy about this idea, I think I should be given the opportunity to lower my cholesterol by natural means first. I know its the Government who are behind pushing statins (a chemist told me) and that only adds to my lack of confidence in them!!! It appears that once on these, it’s a life thing, and I am also opposed to that unless 101% necessary. They are also not without complications. Anyone on them, had to come off them or any conspiracy theorists out there…all viewpoints welcome Ron O’Brien

Response:

I’m 34 years insulin dependant (I refuse to be a ‘type’ but AM dependent on insulin!),

So why refuse to be a "type"? Ok, it’s a label, but it’s a very useful lable when it comes to such things as hospital treatment for things unrelated to DM. for the first time my cholesterol level has gone to 5.3 but as my HBA1C was also up at 8.5 – this can effect the cholesterol result.

I don’t know if there’s a hard and fast rule/link, but I doubt it. I also pass the grand old age of 50 next month and my GP has immediately jumped on the "Statins" bandwagon – no other counselling or trying diets and levelling the HBA1C out – just says I need statins. I’m not too happy about this idea, I think I should be given the opportunity to lower my cholesterol by natural means first.

Come on Ron, you ARE given the opportunity to lower your cholesterol by any means you want. No-one (including doctors) can MAKE you take ANY drug. All it requires is for you to say "Thanks, but no thanks, I’ll go another route first, and if it doesn’t work, we’ll see about the statins". If he’s such a petty bleeder as to give you grief about your choice, maybe it’s time for another GP. I know its the Government who are behind pushing statins (a chemist told me) and that only adds to my lack of confidence in them!!!

So don’t take any, but ask yourself this. As an insulin user, ALL your prescription charges are waived, so what benefit would the gov’mint gain by getting you hooked on ‘em? It appears that once on these, it’s a life thing, and I am also opposed to that unless 101% necessary. They are also not without complications.

So don’t take any. Anyone on them, had to come off them or any conspiracy theorists out there…all viewpoints welcome

There’s always a conspiracy about something or other. Beav

Response:

i ‘jumped’ to 5.25 with a perfect HDL and Trig level….. it’s just that my HDL was so high it pushed my total chol figure over the top given the side benefits of a ’statin med i’ll happily take them for the rest of my life….. i know…. that sounds terrible…… THE REST OF YOUR LIFE…… however i want that to be a LONG a LIFE as possible if that means a ’statin…. so be it i had a liver/muscle enzyme test done BEFORE i started the ’statin and again at the 6 week mark to see if there was a significant change……. it did go up, but not significantly…… that is the best ‘test’ for a statin that i can think of…… and to avoid having one is fool hardy at best good luck kate — Join us in the Diabetic-Talk Chatroom on UnderNet /server irc.undernet.org — /join #Diabetic-Talk More info: http://www.diabetic-talk.org/ I have no medical qualifications beyond my own experience. Choose your advisers carefully, because experience can be an expensive teacher.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m 34 years insulin dependant (I refuse to be a ‘type’ but AM dependent on insulin!), for the first time my cholesterol level has gone to 5.3 but as my HBA1C was also up at 8.5 – this can effect the cholesterol result. I also pass the grand old age of 50 next month and my GP has immediately jumped on the "Statins" bandwagon – no other counselling or trying diets and levelling the HBA1C out – just says I need statins. I’m not too happy about this idea, I think I should be given the opportunity to lower my cholesterol by natural means first. I know its the Government who are behind pushing statins (a chemist told me) and that only adds to my lack of confidence in them!!! It appears that once on these, it’s a life thing, and I am also opposed to that unless 101% necessary. They are also not without complications. Anyone on them, had to come off them or any conspiracy theorists out there…all viewpoints welcome Ron O’Brien

Response:

Nothing to stop you taking them and then stopping. I did. Note that it might be wise to supplement with CoQ10 when taking a statin, may prevent some of the muscular side effects which affect some. I found no muscular side effects, but was already taking CoQ10 for a heart condition anyway. I stopped because of a suspicion of cognitive side effects. At my age (60) hard to be sure, but I didn’t want to be unsure! — IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King’s Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m 34 years insulin dependant (I refuse to be a ‘type’ but AM dependent on insulin!), for the first time my cholesterol level has gone to 5.3 but as my HBA1C was also up at 8.5 – this can effect the cholesterol result. I also pass the grand old age of 50 next month and my GP has immediately jumped on the "Statins" bandwagon – no other counselling or trying diets and levelling the HBA1C out – just says I need statins. I’m not too happy about this idea, I think I should be given the opportunity to lower my cholesterol by natural means first. I know its the Government who are behind pushing statins (a chemist told me) and that only adds to my lack of confidence in them!!! It appears that once on these, it’s a life thing, and I am also opposed to that unless 101% necessary. They are also not without complications. Anyone on them, had to come off them or any conspiracy theorists out there…all viewpoints welcome

Statins are the "wonder" drug of the age and so effective, and with so few side-effects, that they will probably become OTC. They could well be a sound investment, finanically and medically, for the NHS, reducing all sorts of conditions from circulation problems, amputations, blindness, aneurysms, angioplasties, heart bypass operations, heart attacks, strokes, high blood pressure and many other causes of premature death and high-cost long-term care. Why anyone would not wish to take them is beyond me, and I’m not saying they should be a replacement for a healthy lifestyle. JPG – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ron O’Brien

Response:

Anyone on them, had to come off them or any conspiracy theorists out there…all viewpoints welcome

Well the American College of Physicians have summat to say about statins in their recent guidelines. Their 4 recommendations are below and which seem to suggest every T2 should be on a statin ? Lipid control in the management of type 2 diabetes mellitus: a clinical practice guideline from the American College of Physicians. "RECOMMENDATION 1: Lipid-lowering therapy should be used for secondary prevention of cardiovascular mortality and morbidity for all patients (both men and women) with known coronary artery disease and type 2 diabetes. RECOMMENDATION 2: Statins should be used for primary prevention against macrovascular complications in patients (both men and women) with type 2 diabetes and other cardiovascular risk factors. RECOMMENDATION 3: Once lipid-lowering therapy is initiated, patients with type 2 diabetes mellitus should be taking at least moderate doses of a statin. RECOMMENDATION 4: For those patients with type 2 diabetes who are taking statins, routine monitoring of liver function tests or muscle enzymes is not recommended except in specific circumstances." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&… On the subject of rhabdowhatsit a JAMA article published this month found one case of hospitalised rhab per 10000 patients . "RESULTS: In 252 460 patients treated with lipid-lowering agents, 24 cases of hospitalized rhabdomyolysis occurred during treatment." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&… There was also a summary article about statins and type 2 diabetes in the Lancet on 27th November but it hasn’t been summarised on the abstract services yet.

Response:

First, ARA (also known as ACE II) are much less likely to have any side-effects. That is the drugs ending *sartan* – Valsartan, Losartan, Irbesartan. Second, not a lifelong thing! Third, if you need them you need them. How about giving them a try to get your lipids in order quickly? Then extra physical activity and reducing carbohydrate should take care of the problem, and then drop the pills. Last, 5.3 is not too bad, on dx I was 7.7, and not given pills but advised to get my HbA1c to less than 7.0. Yours at 8.5 is dangerously high, maybe you need to increase bolus insulin a bit. What is your 1 hour pp reading, please? Alan in the UK

Response:

My Cardiologist added Zetia to my meds. I had a blood test 2 months later. My LDL had gone down to 59. The doctor is very happy. PJ

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m 34 years insulin dependant (I refuse to be a ‘type’ but AM dependent on insulin!), for the first time my cholesterol level has gone to 5.3 but as my HBA1C was also up at 8.5 – this can effect the cholesterol result. I also pass the grand old age of 50 next month and my GP has immediately jumped on the "Statins" bandwagon – no other counselling or trying diets and levelling the HBA1C out – just says I need statins. I’m not too happy about this idea, I think I should be given the opportunity to lower my cholesterol by natural means first. I know its the Government who are behind pushing statins (a chemist told me) and that only adds to my lack of confidence in them!!! It appears that once on these, it’s a life thing, and I am also opposed to that unless 101% necessary. They are also not without complications. Anyone on them, had to come off them or any conspiracy theorists out there…all viewpoints welcome Statins are the "wonder" drug of the age and so effective, and with so few side-effects, that they will probably become OTC. They could well be a sound investment, finanically and medically, for the NHS, reducing all sorts of conditions from circulation problems, amputations, blindness, aneurysms, angioplasties, heart bypass operations, heart attacks, strokes, high blood pressure and many other causes of premature death and high-cost long-term care. Why anyone would not wish to take them is beyond me, and I’m not saying they should be a replacement for a healthy lifestyle. JPG Ron O’Brien

Simvastatin is already OTC, something I am not particularly happy about. The do have few side effects, but should those side effects continue unchecked then they are potentially very harmful indeed. Take Rhabdomyalsis (sp?) – muscle weakness. If the patient does not stop taking the statin then permanent damage can be done. As many people point out, the heart is a muscle and for a group of people such as those with DM where there is an increased risk of a heart condition anyway, the implications are potentially serious. Now that does not mean that I think statins are dangerous in themselves, but only that they can be when used uncontrolled. We have a bizarre culture of "more is better" in this country. Moderation is not the way the majority of people approach things. So despite everything on the label, if statins reduce chol, then more statin will give you less chol, right? Never mind that more statin increases the risk of side effects. How many people out there are aware of the potential side effects of simple painkillers like paracetamol (acetaminophen in the US)? How many do you think even read the label? How many who do, believe them? Are you aware that paracetamol can cause liver, kidney and platelet damage? I firmly believe that all statins should only be available on prescription and that the patient should be specifically warned about potential side effects and what to do if they occur. Liver function tests as a minimum should be mandatory before starting with checks after an appropriate period. Statins are the latest fad in medicine and there have been too many calls for them to be handed out like smarties. There are dangers of serious side effects to around 2% of people. I have this image of the man on the street deciding that since he’s obese, taking a statin and 2 days later feeling a lot of weakness in muscles. Instead of seeing the doc, he takes painkillers. Alternatively he reads some crap out of a magazine that gives garbage medical advice (like the crap my mother comes out with occasionally) and decides it is another condition and takes another OTC med. By the time he does get to a doc (or A&E) permanent damage has been done when in fact all that needed to be done was change to another statin. Remember that many people find they suffer side effects on one statin but not on another. Ron, Rather than blindly take a statin, I suggest that you get a lipid breakdown done if you have not done so already and take actions to adjust those results, rather than just the overall total chol. Sounds to me like your trigs are up. Drop the A1c and the trigs will follow to some extent. Do that for 3 months and if things have not improved, go ahead with the statin. Make sure you understand what the potential side effects are from leaflets, websites (drugs.com, rxlist.com) and discussions with your doc. Watch out for the side effects and get back to your doc immediately if you experience them. You can always switch to another statin and retry until you find something that works for you. Get liver function blood tests done before you start a statin. You’ve already got a knackered pancreas, you don’t want a knackered liver too Do it right and there is nothing to worry about. VBH T2/UK/A1c 5.8/ 1000Met/Dx Oct-03

Response:

Statins have a tremendous effect on death from heart attack rates and heart attack rates in general. Some of it doesn’t make sense since the effect on premature death is even greater than the reduction in cholesterol would indicate. The docs think the statins do something to protect the artery walls while they are reducing cholesterol levels. Statins are not a "life thing". You can take them for a while, then stop, then start, or whatever. However, why you would want to stop is beyond me unless you are feeling suicidal or something. Remember to memorize the ‘bad" side effects and watch for them. If you are one of the unlucky few who experience them, you must stop taking them, then take your chances with early heart attack. Something to think about in the conspiracy area: Statins stop you from dropping dead. Diabetics need expensive medical coverage so it’s cheaper if you drop dead. If the government had some nefarious reasons to "get you", they would avoid giving you expensive statins so that the expensive diabetic would "go away more quickly" Regards Old Al

Response:

<big snip Regards Old Al

i liked it better when you gave info that you are an adult onset t1 bill t1 since ‘57

Response:

Below 5 is considered good enough for govmint work. Mine’s 4.5 for which I received a pat on the back (although that didn’t change anything:) Beav

Response:

i’m in the USA and haven’t a clue as to what "5.3" means for a cholesterol level test i do have a clue on an HbA1c of 8.5 and while it’s not bad it does need work I also pass the grand old age of 50 next month

50 – 34 = you got diabetes at age 16. odds are yer a type-1 diabetic and my GP has immediately jumped on the "Statins" bandwagon – no other counselling or trying diets and levelling the HBA1C out – just says I need statins.

avoid taking meds long term, other than stuff like insulin and thyroid hormone (both of which i take) fwiw, docs have to be intelligent to become docs, which tends to mean that they’re great on details; which means that they often (i.e. 51%) do not see the forest coz they’re too focused on the trees I’m not too happy about this idea, I think I should be given the opportunity to lower my cholesterol by natural means first.

drink dry red wine coz it will raise yer HDL. :) I know its the Government who are behind pushing statins (a chemist told me) and that only adds to my lack of confidence in them!!! It appears that once on these, it’s a life thing, and I am also opposed to that unless 101% necessary. They are also not without complications.

any (almost all?) "drug"/supplements have negative side effects the more you take the more negative side effects you get afaik there are a few exceptions to this and some insulins and some thyroid meds may be in this category (both are hormones, insulin is complex (52 amino acids?) and thyroid is simple (1 amino acid) Anyone on them, had to come off them or any conspiracy theorists out there…all viewpoints welcome

to repeat: avoid taking meds long term (if you can) also, the standard cholesterol test has little or no corelation with possible heart/artery problems for a much better/new test see: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:4nJfR_fhGnoJ:www.msnbc.msn.com/i… (i went to www.google.com and searched on "cholesterol correlate heart attack") best, bill t1 since ‘57, ex 8-yr pumper, pork/beef-L 1x, simple MDI p.s. assuming yer in the UK, you still have easy access to beef insulin, which is hands down the best for background insulin, and the R (CP’s "soluble") is also useful. :)

Response:

Why anyone would not wish to take them is beyond me, and I’m not saying they should be a replacement for a healthy lifestyle. JPG Of course we have to assume that people take them responsibly.

That’s not a very good thing to do though. Beav

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course we have to assume that people take them responsibly. JPG JPG, Just reread my post. Sorry if it reads as if there was anything personal in it. I was just in rant mode.

No offence taken. I just believe that we should take advantage of whatever is available – with the usual caveats (side effects etc). JPG T2/UK/A1c 6.8/2550Met 40Rosi/Dx Oct-98 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – VBH T2/UK/A1c 5.8/ 1000Met/Dx Oct-03

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m 34 years insulin dependant (I refuse to be a ‘type’ but AM dependent on insulin!), for the first time my cholesterol level has gone to 5.3 but as my HBA1C was also up at 8.5 – this can effect the cholesterol result. I also pass the grand old age of 50 next month and my GP has immediately jumped on the "Statins" bandwagon – no other counselling or trying diets and levelling the HBA1C out – just says I need statins. I’m not too happy about this idea, I think I should be given the opportunity to lower my cholesterol by natural means first. I know its the Government who are behind pushing statins (a chemist told me) and that only adds to my lack of confidence in them!!! It appears that once on these, it’s a life thing, and I am also opposed to that unless 101% necessary. They are also not without complications. Anyone on them, had to come off them or any conspiracy theorists out there…all viewpoints welcome Statins are the "wonder" drug of the age and so effective, and with so few side-effects, that they will probably become OTC. They could well be a sound investment, finanically and medically, for the NHS, reducing all sorts of conditions from circulation problems, amputations, blindness, aneurysms, angioplasties, heart bypass operations, heart attacks, strokes, high blood pressure and many other causes of premature death and high-cost long-term care. Why anyone would not wish to take them is beyond me, and I’m not saying they should be a replacement for a healthy lifestyle. JPG

Of course we have to assume that people take them responsibly. JPG

Response:

JPG, Just reread my post. Sorry if it reads as if there was anything personal in it. I was just in rant mode. VBH T2/UK/A1c 5.8/ 1000Met/Dx Oct-03

Response:

with everything ‘in range’ or low normal except for my HDL Chol……. my total was 5.25 and i was put on a statin med for that my new numbers have reduced the LDL even further and the trigs even further so i’m at 4.5 and holding……. with high HDL levels still go figure kate

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve probably missed most of the replies to this post…. But replying to the original question.. yes i have. I’ve been using atorvastatin (Lipitor) for some time and recently (after some horrifically high levels) the dose was doubled to 40mg a day. Very quickly afterwards the mild loss of feeling in my extremeities became much much worse. I lost feeling in all my toes and partially in my feet as well. I also started to get severe burning pains in my hands and my nerves are hyper sensitive. I read on the web that some people have reported this and stopped my statins to see if it made any difference. Well, it has. After a month of non use feeling is returning. At the moment the only anti cholesterol I’m using is the plant sterols found in Benecol foods. Am due a blood test soon for cholesterol so will see what effect that has had! Martin T2 since ‘98 Novorapid x 3 Levemir x 2 I’m 34 years insulin dependant (I refuse to be a ‘type’ but AM dependent on insulin!), for the first time my cholesterol level has gone to 5.3 but as my HBA1C was also up at 8.5 – this can effect the cholesterol result. i’m in the USA and haven’t a clue as to what "5.3" means for a cholesterol level test i do have a clue on an HbA1c of 8.5 and while it’s not bad it does need work I also pass the grand old age of 50 next month 50 – 34 = you got diabetes at age 16. odds are yer a type-1 diabetic and my GP has immediately jumped on the "Statins" bandwagon – no other counselling or trying diets and levelling the HBA1C out – just says I need statins. avoid taking meds long term, other than stuff like insulin and thyroid hormone (both of which i take) fwiw, docs have to be intelligent to become docs, which tends to mean that they’re great on details; which means that they often (i.e. 51%) do not see the forest coz they’re too focused on the trees I’m not too happy about this idea, I think I should be given the opportunity to lower my cholesterol by natural means first. drink dry red wine coz it will raise yer HDL. :) I know its the Government who are behind pushing statins (a chemist told me) and that only adds to my lack of confidence in them!!! It appears that once on these, it’s a life thing, and I am also opposed to that unless 101% necessary. They are also not without complications. any (almost all?) "drug"/supplements have negative side effects the more you take the more negative side effects you get afaik there are a few exceptions to this and some insulins and some thyroid meds may be in this category (both are hormones, insulin is complex (52 amino acids?) and thyroid is simple (1 amino acid) Anyone on them, had to come off them or any conspiracy theorists out there…all viewpoints welcome to repeat: avoid taking meds long term (if you can) also, the standard cholesterol test has little or no corelation with possible heart/artery problems for a much better/new test see: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:4nJfR_fhGnoJ:www.msnbc.msn.com/i… (i went to www.google.com and searched on "cholesterol correlate heart attack") best, bill t1 since ‘57, ex 8-yr pumper, pork/beef-L 1x, simple MDI p.s. assuming yer in the UK, you still have easy access to beef insulin, which is hands down the best for background insulin, and the R (CP’s "soluble") is also useful. :)

Martin, There’s a new medication, Zetia, which is appropriate for people who can’t take statins. It has brought total cholesterol down by about 40% while leaving my HDL very high. It works by blocking an enzyme used in the uptake of cholesterol in the gut. –Jenny Type 2 diabetes since 1998. Hba1c 5.7% Low Carbing for 5 years. 140 lbs (goal) Cut the "carbs" to respond to my email address. What they Don’t Tell You About Diabetes Web Site http://www.geocities.com/lottadata4u/ Jenny’s Low Carb Diet Facts & Figures site http://www.geocities.com/jenny_the_bean/ Looking for help controlling your blood sugar? Visit http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/Newly%20Diagnosed.htm

Response:

I’ve probably missed most of the replies to this post…. But replying to the original question.. yes i have.

the original question (by a diabetic who is likely t1) was: <"Anyone on them, had to come off them" I’ve been using atorvastatin (Lipitor) for some time

"some time"? how many years did you use Lipitor for? and recently (after some horrifically high levels) the dose was doubled to 40mg a day. Very quickly afterwards the mild loss of feeling in my extremeities became much much worse. I lost feeling in all my toes and partially in my feet as well. I also started to get severe burning pains in my hands and my nerves are hyper sensitive. I read on the web that some people have reported this and stopped my statins to see if it made any difference. Well, it has.

*that* is interesting for what it’s worth, you may have an insulin allergy with one of these new analog insulins that you are using (aspart/NovoRapid and Levemir) also, i wasn’t aware that Levemir was now being offered commercially is this really true? if yes, in which coutry(ies) is Levemir now available? After a month of non use feeling is returning. At the moment the only anti cholesterol I’m using is the plant sterols found in Benecol foods. Am due a blood test soon for cholesterol so will see what effect that has had! Martin T2 since ‘98 Novorapid x 3 Levemir x 2

ok, diabetic for 6 years how long have you used insulin for? kindly give detail on what specific insulin(s) you’ve used. (for the last 6 years?) and dates too also, what were your last 3 HbA1c results? also, are you in the UK? bill t1 since ‘57, ex 8-yr pumper, pork/beef-L 1x, simple MDI

Response:

Hi Willbill, Sorry, posted while very tired and didn’t give as much info as you might like. I’m terrible with dates though. My history is.. Overweight type 2 started on diet only in 1998, then tried metformin and later Glucobay. Didn’t tolerate the glucobays side effects at all well and went back onto metformin. Generally good control with hba1cs <5. Anyway following a severe cold Xmas 2002 developed uncontrollable bgs (33mmols/l +) and severe sickness with ketones +++ and admitted into hospital for diabetic ketoacidosis. Started on Mixtard 70/30 which although initally effective was totally useless for my chaotic lifestyle and moved to NovoRapid with NPH. Terrible problems with my bgs and bad hba1c of 12, so moved on to NovoRapid with Lantus. Didn’t tolerate Lantus (painful on injection) so now on Levemir. So far so good. Inject Levemir on split dose of 42u. As far as the cholesterol is concerned, my G.P is really concerned. My first test gave me a total cholesterol of approx 11 with very, very low good lipids and very high bad lipids. However, the results are unreliable because my triglycerides are off the scale. Had a retest as they suspected a faulty test and a second test was much better (but still too high) but not got the figures. clinic doctor moved me up to 40mg beginning of 2004. I started getting a little numbness in my fingers and toes but it was very slight and my control was pretty bad so I wasn’t blaming the drugs just my bad control. At the beginning of 2004 I noticed that the numbness was very severe and developed really awful hypersensitivity in my nerves. This was first diagnosed as a Mortons Neuroma as I could feel the nerves in the balls of my feet. but since then I get terrible pain from any pressure on the sides of my fingers and toes (where the nerves go). I mentioned all of this to my G.P and told him that I had read some information suggesting that the Lipitor *might* be causing it and that I was going to stop it for a while. Since stopping it I have definately noticed a change in the sensitivity of my fingers and the general numbness has gone. From my limited reading on the web, there is some doubt of the efficacy of statins to lower the amount of bad cholesterol and increase the levels of good cholesterol or affect triglycerides. It seems effective only for total cholesterol. I understand that plant sterols and phytosterols are much more effective in this respect. Clearly this is unresolved and I am looking for other ways of reducing my insulin requirement and my cholesterol. I might have found it in a different way! I have been acting as a volunteer labourer for a local landscape gardener/tree surgeon friend and he is working me very hard. I am combining this hard labouring with sensible eating and benecol. Hopefully my next test (imminent) will show improvement. Martin. I’ve been using atorvastatin (Lipitor) for some time "some time"?

I started on Lipitor approx – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – how many years did you use Lipitor for? and recently (after some horrifically high levels) the dose was doubled to 40mg a day. Very quickly afterwards the mild loss of feeling in my extremeities became much much worse. I lost feeling in all my toes and partially in my feet as well. I also started to get severe burning pains in my hands and my nerves are hyper sensitive. I read on the web that some people have reported this and stopped my statins to see if it made any difference. Well, it has. *that* is interesting for what it’s worth, you may have an insulin allergy with one of these new analog insulins that you are using (aspart/NovoRapid and Levemir) also, i wasn’t aware that Levemir was now being offered commercially is this really true? if yes, in which coutry(ies) is Levemir now available? After a month of non use feeling is returning. At the moment the only anti cholesterol I’m using is the plant sterols found in Benecol foods. Am due a blood test soon for cholesterol so will see what effect that has had! Martin T2 since ‘98 Novorapid x 3 Levemir x 2 ok, diabetic for 6 years how long have you used insulin for? kindly give detail on what specific insulin(s) you’ve used. (for the last 6 years?) and dates too also, what were your last 3 HbA1c results? also, are you in the UK? bill t1 since ‘57, ex 8-yr pumper, pork/beef-L 1x, simple MDI

Response:

I’ve probably missed most of the replies to this post…. But replying to the original question.. yes i have. I’ve been using atorvastatin (Lipitor) for some time and recently (after some horrifically high levels) the dose was doubled to 40mg a day. Very quickly afterwards the mild loss of feeling in my extremeities became much much worse. I lost feeling in all my toes and partially in my feet as well. I also started to get severe burning pains in my hands and my nerves are hyper sensitive. I read on the web that some people have reported this and stopped my statins to see if it made any difference. Well, it has. After a month of non use feeling is returning. At the moment the only anti cholesterol I’m using is the plant sterols found in Benecol foods. Am due a blood test soon for cholesterol so will see what effect that has had! Martin T2 since ‘98 Novorapid x 3 Levemir x 2

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m 34 years insulin dependant (I refuse to be a ‘type’ but AM dependent on insulin!), for the first time my cholesterol level has gone to 5.3 but as my HBA1C was also up at 8.5 – this can effect the cholesterol result. i’m in the USA and haven’t a clue as to what "5.3" means for a cholesterol level test i do have a clue on an HbA1c of 8.5 and while it’s not bad it does need work I also pass the grand old age of 50 next month 50 – 34 = you got diabetes at age 16. odds are yer a type-1 diabetic and my GP has immediately jumped on the "Statins" bandwagon – no other counselling or trying diets and levelling the HBA1C out – just says I need statins. avoid taking meds long term, other than stuff like insulin and thyroid hormone (both of which i take) fwiw, docs have to be intelligent to become docs, which tends to mean that they’re great on details; which means that they often (i.e. 51%) do not see the forest coz they’re too focused on the trees I’m not too happy about this idea, I think I should be given the opportunity to lower my cholesterol by natural means first. drink dry red wine coz it will raise yer HDL. :) I know its the Government who are behind pushing statins (a chemist told me) and that only adds to my lack of confidence in them!!! It appears that once on these, it’s a life thing, and I am also opposed to that unless 101% necessary. They are also not without complications. any (almost all?) "drug"/supplements have negative side effects the more you take the more negative side effects you get afaik there are a few exceptions to this and some insulins and some thyroid meds may be in this category (both are hormones, insulin is complex (52 amino acids?) and thyroid is simple (1 amino acid) Anyone on them, had to come off them or any conspiracy theorists out there…all viewpoints welcome to repeat: avoid taking meds long term (if you can) also, the standard cholesterol test has little or no corelation with possible heart/artery problems for a much better/new test see: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:4nJfR_fhGnoJ:www.msnbc.msn.com/i… (i went to www.google.com and searched on "cholesterol correlate heart attack") best, bill t1 since ‘57, ex 8-yr pumper, pork/beef-L 1x, simple MDI p.s. assuming yer in the UK, you still have easy access to beef insulin, which is hands down the best for background insulin, and the R (CP’s "soluble") is also useful. :)

Response:

My history is.. Overweight type 2 started on diet only in 1998, then tried metformin and later Glucobay. Didn’t tolerate the glucobays side effects at all well and went back onto metformin. Generally good control with hba1cs <5. Anyway following a severe cold Xmas 2002 developed uncontrollable bgs (33mmols/l +) and severe sickness with ketones +++ and admitted into hospital for diabetic ketoacidosis.

ketoacidosis doesn’t often happen for type-2 diabetics. i’ve only seen one type-2 post about it happening to him where it was clear that he was a type-2 and that it did happen (i’ve posted/read misc.health.diabetes for the last 7 years) any chance you are a very slow onset type-1? very slow onset diabetes seldom happens (never?) for child onset (i.e. under 20), but does sometimes happen for adult onset (over 30) i’ll grant that your being overweight suggests that you are type-2, but there are some diabetics who are both autoimmune and have insulin resistance, and as far as i know the autoimmune issue takes precedence in which type you are Started on Mixtard 70/30 which although initally effective was totally useless for my chaotic lifestyle and moved to NovoRapid with NPH. Terrible problems with my bgs and bad hba1c of 12, so moved on to NovoRapid with Lantus. Didn’t tolerate Lantus (painful on injection) so now on Levemir. So far so good. Inject Levemir on split dose of 42u.

42u of Levemir in the morning and another 42u in the evening? plus meal insulin? how many total units of insulin do you presently take per day? also will you provide a clue of where you are? e.g. UK, or Europe, or Austrailia? i ask only because i wasn’t aware that Levemir is now offered commercially somewhere in the world As far as the cholesterol is concerned, my G.P is really concerned.

i’m not a doc, but i’ve run into this with one of my own docs for myself. my doc completely overlooked my excellent ratios and wanted me to go on statins. which is why i posted my comments (earlier in this thread) about being careful about taking meds long term unless you are very certain you need to do it – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My first test gave me a total cholesterol of approx 11 with very, very low good lipids and very high bad lipids. However, the results are unreliable because my triglycerides are off the scale. Had a retest as they suspected a faulty test and a second test was much better (but still too high) but not got the figures. clinic doctor moved me up to 40mg beginning of 2004. I started getting a little numbness in my fingers and toes but it was very slight and my control was pretty bad so I wasn’t blaming the drugs just my bad control. At the beginning of 2004 I noticed that the numbness was very severe and developed really awful hypersensitivity in my nerves. This was first diagnosed as a Mortons Neuroma as I could feel the nerves in the balls of my feet. but since then I get terrible pain from any pressure on the sides of my fingers and toes (where the nerves go). I mentioned all of this to my G.P and told him that I had read some information suggesting that the Lipitor *might* be causing it and that I was going to stop it for a while. Since stopping it I have definately noticed a change in the sensitivity of my fingers and the general numbness has gone.

i pumped insulin for 8 years (‘91-’98). the 1st 6+ years were with "human"-R in the pump, then 10 months with Humalog in the pump. after about 7 months with the Humalog, i started getting some truly strange symptoms, one of which was extremely ouchy finger tips of course, my doc wrote it off to my testing "too much" after another 3 months i ditched Humalog and went to pumping a 50/50 mix of beef/pork-R (my decision, not my docs). and no, i’m NOT saying that you have an insulin allergy, only that when strange things happen you have to look at *everything* you are doing and *all* of the meds you are taking btw, after ditching the Humalog it still took me another 6 months before finally discovering that it was an allergy with Humalog. oh, and btw, my ouchy fingertips disappeared in the 1st 10 days after getting rid of the Humalog. :) the reason i bring it up is that it is likely the last thing that your doc will think of, assuming he ever does think of it insulin allergy used to be a big deal 30+ years ago, but contining improvements to insulins (reduction of impurities), and inroduction of pure pork and synthetic "human" insulin (both of which are about equally good in so far as minimal allergy problems), we don’t hear much about insulin allergy anymore maybe that will change with these weird new analog insulins (of which you are using the two newest). given the not so lovely companies that make pharmaceuticals (and their BIG profits on these new analog insulins), we’ll be the last ones to hear about it (assuming that they in fact do have higher incidence of allergy (than "human" insulin)) From my limited reading on the web, there is some doubt of the efficacy of statins to lower the amount of bad cholesterol and increase the levels of good cholesterol or affect triglycerides. It seems effective only for total cholesterol. I understand that plant sterols and phytosterols are much more effective in this respect. Clearly this is unresolved and I am looking for other ways of reducing my insulin requirement and my cholesterol. I might have found it in a different way! I have been acting as a volunteer labourer for a local landscape gardener/tree surgeon friend and he is working me very hard. I am combining this hard labouring with sensible eating and benecol. Hopefully my next test (imminent) will show improvement.

i suggest you go out to www.google.com and do a search on: "cholesterol correlate heart attack" best, bill t1 since ‘57, ex 8-yr pumper, pork/beef-L 1x, simple MDI

Response:

Hi Willbill, thanks for your reply. I’m 40 years old and living in the UK. I am only 5′6" and weigh 260 lbs which goes a long way to the diagnosis of T2 diabetes. Funny enough I remember well that I had been carrying around bottles of water the summer before I was diagnosed and my wife tells me I was bad tempered and very sweaty. I thought it came on came on quite suddenly as I had been drinking several litres of root beer while studying but my symptoms had been visible to everyone but me for some time! My first random blood test was 14 mmols/l (i think 250 in US measure). My insulin regimen is currently variable but has been Breakfast:: 1 x 45u Levemir and 1 x 40u Novorapid + 1g Metformin and 1x 100mg Losartan Potassium Lunch: 1 x 45u Novorapid Dinner 1x 45u Novorapid Night-time 1 x 45u Levemir + 1g Metformin + 40mg Atorvastatin ( * but I am not taking these at present) My doctor tells me that my cholesterol issues are due to how I was made, but i am taking steps to change my diet and lifestyle. Certainly my shape is changing rapidly with my work, in fact I feel I am losing a lot of weight. I would like to be back to the 160 lbs I was when in the army some 15 years ago!! Anyway, I have been using the plant sterols at the 3g level every day as recommended and certainly expect to see an improvement in my cholesterol levels. I have heard about beef/porcine insulins before from Old Al who suggested a beef lente and others and I pursued the issue with my clinic specialist.. However, my Diabetic consultant and the registrars are very reticent to even discuss them. They are very sold on human insulins and considered animal insulins as backward and not commonly used. I am very pleased the numbness as almost completely gone, but the sensitive nerves remains to a slightly lower level. I am definately going to bring this up with my specialist when I see him on the 29th of the month. The new registrar is fairly easy to discuss things with and is young enough perhaps to have a more open mind. Certainly I am thinking of avoiding heart attack and stroke so am taking the exercise and weightloss thing seriously. I gave up smoking some 8 years ago and hardly drink alcohol at all. Don’t know what else I can do!!!! bestest (especially for the season) Martin.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My history is.. Overweight type 2 started on diet only in 1998, then tried metformin and later Glucobay. Didn’t tolerate the glucobays side effects at all well and went back onto metformin. Generally good control with hba1cs <5. Anyway following a severe cold Xmas 2002 developed uncontrollable bgs (33mmols/l +) and severe sickness with ketones +++ and admitted into hospital for diabetic ketoacidosis. ketoacidosis doesn’t often happen for type-2 diabetics. i’ve only seen one type-2 post about it happening to him where it was clear that he was a type-2 and that it did happen (i’ve posted/read misc.health.diabetes for the last 7 years) any chance you are a very slow onset type-1? very slow onset diabetes seldom happens (never?) for child onset (i.e. under 20), but does sometimes happen for adult onset (over 30) i’ll grant that your being overweight suggests that you are type-2, but there are some diabetics who are both autoimmune and have insulin resistance, and as far as i know the autoimmune issue takes precedence in which type you are Started on Mixtard 70/30 which although initally effective was totally useless for my chaotic lifestyle and moved to NovoRapid with NPH. Terrible problems with my bgs and bad hba1c of 12, so moved on to NovoRapid with Lantus. Didn’t tolerate Lantus (painful on injection) so now on Levemir. So far so good. Inject Levemir on split dose of 42u. 42u of Levemir in the morning and another 42u in the evening? plus meal insulin? how many total units of insulin do you presently take per day? also will you provide a clue of where you are? e.g. UK, or Europe, or Austrailia? i ask only because i wasn’t aware that Levemir is now offered commercially somewhere in the world As far as the cholesterol is concerned, my G.P is really concerned. i’m not a doc, but i’ve run into this with one of my own docs for myself. my doc completely overlooked my excellent ratios and wanted me to go on statins. which is why i posted my comments (earlier in this thread) about being careful about taking meds long term unless you are very certain you need to do it My first test gave me a total cholesterol of approx 11 with very, very low good lipids and very high bad lipids. However, the results are unreliable because my triglycerides are off the scale. Had a retest as they suspected a faulty test and a second test was much better (but still too high) but not got the figures. clinic doctor moved me up to 40mg beginning of 2004. I started getting a little numbness in my fingers and toes but it was very slight and my control was pretty bad so I wasn’t blaming the drugs just my bad control. At the beginning of 2004 I noticed that the numbness was very severe and developed really awful hypersensitivity in my nerves. This was first diagnosed as a Mortons Neuroma as I could feel the nerves in the balls of my feet. but since then I get terrible pain from any pressure on the sides of my fingers and toes (where the nerves go). I mentioned all of this to my G.P and told him that I had read some information suggesting that the Lipitor *might* be causing it and that I was going to stop it for a while. Since stopping it I have definately noticed a change in the sensitivity of my fingers and the general numbness has gone. i pumped insulin for 8 years (‘91-’98). the 1st 6+ years were with "human"-R in the pump, then 10 months with Humalog in the pump. after about 7 months with the Humalog, i started getting some truly strange symptoms, one of which was extremely ouchy finger tips of course, my doc wrote it off to my testing "too much" after another 3 months i ditched Humalog and went to pumping a 50/50 mix of beef/pork-R (my decision, not my docs). and no, i’m NOT saying that you have an insulin allergy, only that when strange things happen you have to look at *everything* you are doing and *all* of the meds you are taking btw, after ditching the Humalog it still took me another 6 months before finally discovering that it was an allergy with Humalog. oh, and btw, my ouchy fingertips disappeared in the 1st 10 days after getting rid of the Humalog. :) the reason i bring it up is that it is likely the last thing that your doc will think of, assuming he ever does think of it insulin allergy used to be a big deal 30+ years ago, but contining improvements to insulins (reduction of impurities), and inroduction of pure pork and synthetic "human" insulin (both of which are about equally good in so far as minimal allergy problems), we don’t hear much about insulin allergy anymore maybe that will change with these weird new analog insulins (of which you are using the two newest). given the not so lovely companies that make pharmaceuticals (and their BIG profits on these new analog insulins), we’ll be the last ones to hear about it (assuming that they in fact do have higher incidence of allergy (than "human" insulin)) From my limited reading on the web, there is some doubt of the efficacy of statins to lower the amount of bad cholesterol and increase the levels of good cholesterol or affect triglycerides. It seems effective only for total cholesterol. I understand that plant sterols and phytosterols are much more effective in this respect. Clearly this is unresolved and I am looking for other ways of reducing my insulin requirement and my cholesterol. I might have found it in a different way! I have been acting as a volunteer labourer for a local landscape gardener/tree surgeon friend and he is working me very hard. I am combining this hard labouring with sensible eating and benecol. Hopefully my next test (imminent) will show improvement. i suggest you go out to www.google.com and do a search on: "cholesterol correlate heart attack" best, bill t1 since ‘57, ex 8-yr pumper, pork/beef-L 1x, simple MDI

Response:

I’m 40 years old and living in the UK.

thank you for replying and interesting (!) you are the 1st person i’ve seen who is using Levemir! I am only 5′6" and weigh 260 lbs which goes a long way to the diagnosis of T2 diabetes.

that’s certainly overweight and certainly suggests that you may well be type-2 while i tend to agree with that, your bout with DKA (diabetic keto acidosisis) still suggests that you might be both autoimmune and insulin resistant if so, you’d be primarily type-1 (it’s simply a caution (on my part) and not a certain answer) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Funny enough I remember well that I had been carrying around bottles of water the summer before I was diagnosed and my wife tells me I was bad tempered and very sweaty. I thought it came on came on quite suddenly as I had been drinking several litres of root beer while studying but my symptoms had been visible to everyone but me for some time! My first random blood test was 14 mmols/l (i think 250 in US measure). My insulin regimen is currently variable but has been Breakfast:: 1 x 45u Levemir and 1 x 40u Novorapid + 1g Metformin and 1x 100mg Losartan Potassium Lunch: 1 x 45u Novorapid Dinner 1x 45u Novorapid Night-time 1 x 45u Levemir + 1g Metformin + 40mg Atorvastatin ( * but I am not taking these at present)

imho ("h" = honest/humble (i’m not a humble person)), you might give some serious thought to going to 2x of "human"-UL for background, and 1 or 2 shots of "human"-R for meals. as far as i know "human" insulin has the fewest allergy issues btw, i had 3 odd issues with Humalog (which i am clearly allergic to): 1) ouchy finger tips, 2) an increased need for total insulin through the day (!!), and 3) occasional *intense* nighttime (while asleep) upper body sweating and increased heart rate (!!). it took roughly 7 months of using Humalog before those symptoms showed up, so neither my doc, nor i, ever thought that it might be due to my new insulin (i.e. 100% Humalog via pump) by the way (btw), if you are allergic to either aspart or Levemir, you may well discover that you need a lot less insulin when using only "human" insulin, so be doggone careful if you move to using only "human" insulin!! My doctor tells me that my cholesterol issues are due to how I was made,

everything i’ve learned about cholesterol in the last 7 years sez that that is a definite maybe iow, you might want to consider getting a new doc, coz imho that doesn’t cut it as an "end" answer from yer doc but i am taking steps to change my diet and lifestyle. Certainly my shape is changing rapidly with my work, in fact I feel I am losing a lot of weight. I would like to be back to the 160 lbs I was when in the army some 15 years ago!! Anyway, I have been using the plant sterols at the 3g level every day as recommended and certainly expect to see an improvement in my cholesterol levels. I have heard about beef/porcine insulins before from Old Al who suggested a beef lente

imho, beef Lente is hands down the best background insulin ever made and the only one that can be used 1x (i’ve used it). and given that you’re in the UK that may well be an option to move to, but given the open question about whether or not you might have an insulin allergy issue (with these weird new analog insulins), i’d suggest moving to safer stuff, say to 2x of "human"-UL (imho better than 2x of Levemir) and with 1 or 2 shots of pork-R as your meal insulin (see: http://cppharma.co.uk for pork and/or beef) btw, "R" meaning Regular (USA term) (CP calls it "soluble") and others and I pursued the issue with my clinic specialist.. However, my Diabetic consultant and the registrars are very reticent to even discuss them. They are very sold on human insulins and considered animal insulins as backward and not commonly used. I am very pleased the numbness as almost completely gone, but the sensitive nerves remains to a slightly lower level.

which may (or may not) be due to insulin allergy (at least, in my experience) I am definately going to bring this up with my specialist

i hate to say it, but odds are that they won’t have a clue. :( when I see him on the 29th of the month. The new registrar is fairly easy to discuss things with and is young enough perhaps to have a more open mind. Certainly I am thinking of avoiding heart attack and stroke so am taking the exercise and weightloss thing seriously. I gave up smoking some 8 years ago and hardly drink alcohol at all.

you might want to rethink alcohol repeated *real* sceintific studies this past 7+ years have again and again come to the conclusion that having "some" alcohol in your diet is a sigificant plus; preferrably dry red wine (which will not have any effect on your b/g so long as you don’t have more than 2 glasses of it) Don’t know what else I can do!!!! bestest (especially for the season) Martin.

bestest to you too Martin. :) bill t1 since ‘57, ex 8-yr pumper, pork/beef-L 1x, simple MDI

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