I hope no one takes offense at this question.

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Question:

That isn’t the point. Anyone who’s willing to permanently change their lifestyle will benefit. You should have a good body image regardless. No magic pills necessary. It is also far better to be happy and stable rather than jumping on the bandwagon of all the fad diets. These fads all mess up your diet, which will cause long term medical problems.

That’s why the lifestyle changes need to be permanent. problem in the USA. The fact that 50% of the population is now overweight means the issue is far deeper than any flip answer that any smart-ass doctor-wannbe can make up.

The reason that we are fat is a combination of factors: 1) Easy access to cheap, fattening food. People who were poor used to be skinny, now poor people are among the fatest. 2) Ever growing portions in restaurants. 3) Modern conveniences lead to less activity. 4) We are a stressed out society and we don’t take the time to exercise. Here’s an experiment for you. For two months, lock your car in the garage and don’t use it. Don’t allow anyone to drive you around. Instead, take public transportation, but a bicycle, walk to where you need to go. Do not use elevators. If you need to get there, take the stairs. Eat the same number of calories. You will find that you have lost a lot of weight by the end of those two months. Barbara Hirsch, Publisher OBESITY MEDS AND RESEARCH NEWS The latest in obesity research and weight loss drug development http://www.obesity-news.com/

Response:

In all cases, even in the most severe genetic problems, eating less and exercising more will lead to weight loss and better health. Individuals with leptin mutations will not be normal weight regardless, nor will the fertility issues be alleviated by diet. Cite please.

Cites to leptin treatment articles are in post below. Barbara Hirsch, Publisher OBESITY MEDS AND RESEARCH NEWS The latest in obesity research and weight loss drug development http://www.obesity-news.com/

Response:

I am not interested in visiting your web site. You posted your claim here, you can post your cites here.

Response:

Cites to leptin treatment articles are in post below. I am not interested in visiting your web site. You posted your claim here, you can post your cites here.

Reading is fundamental. I didn’t ask you to visit my web site. I asked you to scroll down to the post in this thread answering rdubose. You’ll find the cites there Barbara Hirsch, Publisher OBESITY MEDS AND RESEARCH NEWS The latest in obesity research and weight loss drug development http://www.obesity-news.com/

Response:

Cites to leptin treatment articles are in post below. I am not interested in visiting your web site. You posted your claim here, you can post your cites here. Reading is fundamental.

The only thing that I saw below your text was the link in your sig. There’s an opportunity for you to be more precise with your writing skills. I didn’t ask you to visit my web site. I asked you to scroll down to the post in this thread answering rdubose.

You are assuming that I sort my messages as you do. Do you also believe you are invisible to others when you close your eyes? You’ll find the cites there

I am not interested in searching your other messages. Post the pertinent cite(s) in a reply to this message.

Response:

So giving them leptin should make a lot of difference, right? If this is the case, please provide the evidence. Giving leptin deficient people leptin completely resolves the obesity and the fertility problems,

Yes. But cases of true leptin deficiency are exceedingly rare. however, individuals with leptin receptor mutations are not helped by recombinant leptin. They already produce leptin, but it is not taken up by the mutated receptor.

I could not find anything about leptin receptor problems. Besides, there is a conceptual problem here. There is no way to know whether obesity is due to leptin receptor inadequacies or not. Leptin is just one of many, many neurotransmitters which are known to be involved in the regulation of appetite/hunger in human beings. It is apparently important enough that a complete failure of its influence leads to serious derangement in appetite control with subsequent obesity. But it cannot be said that garden-variety obesity is due to leptin receptor resistance. . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – References: Congenital leptin deficiency due to homozygosity for the Delta133G mutation: report of another case and evaluation of response to four years of leptin therapy. Gibson WT, et al. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Oct;89(10):4821-6. Phenotypic effects of leptin replacement on morbid obesity, diabetes mellitus, hypogonadism, and behavior in leptin-deficient adults. Licinio J, et al. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2004 Mar 30;101(13):4531-6. Epub 2004 Mar 09. Full text available: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/101/13/4531 Beneficial effects of leptin on obesity, T cell hyporesponsiveness, and neuroendocrine/metabolic dysfunction of human congenital leptin deficiency. Farooqi IS, et al. J Clin Invest. 2002 Oct;110(8):1093-103. Full text available: http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/110/8/1093 Effects of recombinant leptin therapy in a child with congenital leptin deficiency. Farooqi IS, et al. N Engl J Med. 1999 Sep 16;341(12):879-84.

Giving Vit C to someone with scurvy will effect a dramatic, obvious cure. Giving vit C to someone without scurvy produces nothing at all that is not subject to continuuing controversy as to whether it exists or not. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – See also: Monogenic human obesity syndromes. Farooqi IS, et al. Recent Prog Horm Res. 2004;59:409-24. Obesity due to proopiomelanocortin deficiency: three new cases and treatment trials with thyroid hormone and ACTH4-10. Krude H, et al. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Oct;88(10):4633-40. There are many others, but these should be sufficient. Leptin deficiency is very rare. There are probably fewer than 100 people in whom this has been discovered. I have access to all the articles above. If you want me to shoot you a copy of any or all of them, send me your e-mail addy. Address above is fake, but you will get autoresponder with real address by writing it. Invoking the idea of an "undiscovered " genetic factor and waving the concept of "predisposition" around one can claim that any behavior whatsoever is genetic. And in the future we’re probably going to discover those genetic factors. The fact is that some people can eat anything they want and never gain and ounce, while others only need to eat a few calories over metabolic rate and gain — even if physical activity between the two groups is the same.

First of all, it has been shown, over and over again, that self reporting of food intake is of no value. Fat people lie a lot. Second, there is no way to know that physical activity levels are the same amongst different people without doing continuuous measurements of oxygen consumption. The amount of calories/fuel needed to accomplish various activities varies widely from one person to the next depending on bio-mechanical efficiency. Also, people vary a lot in the amount of unconscious fidgeting, foot tapping, squirming around while supposedly sitting still. Indeed, this is probably the largest factor that is truly genetic. This varies much more than true "basal metabolism". In other words, it is a waste of time to arbitrarily assume that physical activity/energy burning is the same between two people because the are assigned or report doing the same things. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The difference between the two? Genetics. Like, "Everyone who is fit at the age of fifty has some undiscovered genetic predisposition to run a lot." Huh? So what? Are you looking to get better or find absolution? As if anyone cares whether you feel justified or not. Health is good; I wasn’t debating the point with you, you’re preaching to the choir. I personally exercise in excess of 10 hours a week and weigh 124 pounds after having lost close to 90 pounds in 1996-1997. fat acceptors tell us that losing fat is so incredibly difficult, that your bodies struggle to hang onto fat content even to the extent of burning up essential muscle mass first and even to the extent of putting you into a low-energy starvation mode if you try to burn any of your stored fat. If you exercise you will lose little if any lean muscle mass, especially if you pump iron. Strength training preserves and grows lean muscle mass, and aerobic activity burns fat.

Very true and very important. I wish that some on this ng would acknowledge this instead of complaining that weight loss is impossible without ruining their bodies. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The above and a 500 kcal deficit should result in dramatic weight loss in most individuals, especially if you are very overweight. I do not know about you, but this does not sound like something to "acept." Well, now you do, and know that it is not something I "accept". Barbara Hirsch, Publisher OBESITY MEDS AND RESEARCH NEWS The latest in obesity research and weight loss drug development http://www.obesity-news.com/

Response:

skinny people are capable of smelling too I will spare you the gory details but trust me it aint just a fat thang.

There are no odor issues inherent with being skinny. OTOH, fat people have skin folds that harbor bacteria, and some people are so obese that they are unable reach their anuses to wipe properly. Reach tools are a frequent topic of discussion on ssfa as well as fat acceptance discussion boards. See http://www.amplestuff.com for a listing of such implements. The fat acceptors have also recommended wrapping toilet paper around a wooden spoon as a solution to the problem of being unable to reach one’s anus.

Response:

See http://www.amplestuff.com for a listing of such implements. The fat acceptors have also recommended wrapping toilet paper around a wooden spoon as a solution to the problem of being unable to reach one’s anus.

Doesn’t that make the brownies taste funny? — (o< |) // ..may the beacon /obt. V_/_ pass you by.. //iller 2:50pm up 31 days, 22:27, 19 users, load average: 0.01, 0.02, 0.00 processes 905896

Response:

I use a hose

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – skinny people are capable of smelling too I will spare you the gory details but trust me it aint just a fat thang. There are no odor issues inherent with being skinny. OTOH, fat people have skin folds that harbor bacteria, and some people are so obese that they are unable reach their anuses to wipe properly. Reach tools are a frequent topic of discussion on ssfa as well as fat acceptance discussion boards. See http://www.amplestuff.com for a listing of such implements. The fat acceptors have also recommended wrapping toilet paper around a wooden spoon as a solution to the problem of being unable to reach one’s anus.

Response:

skinny people are capable of smelling too I will spare you the gory details but trust me it aint just a fat thang. There are no odor issues inherent with being skinny. OTOH, fat people have skin folds that harbor bacteria, and some people are so obese that they are unable reach their anuses to wipe properly.

You know, this was one of the things I noticed as I was losing weight. It was easier to wipe my butt. (really) My hands also feel skinny, I can see my wrist bones, and my wife says it is like having sex with a different person. There are a lot of bennies from losing weight.

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EWWWWWW!!!!!!

Response:

skinny people are capable of smelling too I will spare you the gory details but trust me it aint just a fat thang. There are no odor issues inherent with being skinny.

You’ll start to notice "odor issues" if you ever reach puberty.

Response:

The thing is that most obese people are in denial over their condition. That’s the reason they never manage to lose it, they’re too busy telling themselves "it must be glandular" to notice how many sodas and snacks they cram down their gullets every day. The main cause of obesity is the "I was quite good yesterday so it won’t matter if I have that extra ice cream" system of dieting. Yes, *some* people have genetic problems, but only two or three percent (and this is borne out by the fact that many countries *do* have a 2-3% obesity rate, eg. Spain – where I live). The obesity rate of the USA is 20-30 times the natural rate. The reasons why are obvious to anybody who visits the USA – 2 liter Cokes on sale in MacDonalds, etc. What kind of pig can actually manage to drink two liters of Cola in a single sitting? — fungus "Imagine watching the entire French Air Force crash into a firework factory, that’s how much fun this is…" J.C.

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Did your wife tell you the name of the person it was like having sex with? Its too bad you had to lose weight for her to fess up.

Response:

why do we go on about this? has anyone ever heard of the french invention of the BIDET???????

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – skinny people are capable of smelling too I will spare you the gory details but trust me it aint just a fat thang. There are no odor issues inherent with being skinny. OTOH, fat people have skin folds that harbor bacteria, and some people are so obese that they are unable reach their anuses to wipe properly. You know, this was one of the things I noticed as I was losing weight. It was easier to wipe my butt. (really) My hands also feel skinny, I can see my wrist bones, and my wife says it is like having sex with a different person. There are a lot of bennies from losing weight.

Response:

How many polacks does it take to bake chocolate chip cookies? Two – one to mix the batter, one to squeeze the rabbit.

Response:

why do we go on about this? has anyone ever heard of the french invention of the BIDET??????? There’s a lot of shit stained surface area to be cleaned. The water stream won’t be wide enough. The fat ass would have to spread his/her cheeks wide and gyrate. They would also have to hover over the bidet while doing this supporting their own weight. What are the chances of them going to all of that strain and effort just to clean themselves? Derm

I’ve read that the rare feces gem can occur from this phenomonom, leave enough feces long enough under enough pressure and this highly valuable gem can occur, depending on diet and excercise of course. Raiding fatty buttocks for this priceless comodity can be dangerous though. So be careful when raiding those overweight slippery buns!

Response:

Yes, *some* people have genetic problems, but only two or three percent (and this is borne out by the fact that many countries *do* have a 2-3%

5 to 6 percent of the population has one or more mutations of the melanocortin-4 receptor (MC4R), the largest monogenic cause of obesity. There are other rarer genetic mutations, like defective leptin receptor or leptin deficiency. In all cases, even in the most severe genetic problems, eating less and exercising more will lead to weight loss and better health. Individuals with leptin mutations will not be normal weight regardless, nor will the fertility issues be alleviated by diet. Depending on the severity of MC4R mutation, some individuals may be able to maintain normal weight with a lot of dedication. All people who are obese have a discovered or undiscovered genetic predisposition to obesity. However, environment also plays a role. And if individuals who gain weight easily will moderate food intake and exercise, they will lose weight, and may even become normal weight with enough dedication. However, in all cases they will be better off doing something than nothing. Barbara Hirsch, Publisher OBESITY MEDS AND RESEARCH NEWS The latest in obesity research and weight loss drug development http://www.obesity-news.com/

Response:

And if individuals who gain weight easily will moderate food intake and exercise, they will lose weight, and may even become normal weight with enough dedication. However, in all cases they will be better off doing something than nothing.

That is a bunch of BS. A person who is willing accept themselves as they are and be happy is far better off than one who is obsessive about their body image and not happy with their body. If you listen to all this "magic pill to lose weight" advertising, one will go crazy. It is also far better to be happy and stable rather than jumping on the bandwagon of all the fad diets. These fads all mess up your diet, which will cause long term medical problems. Finally, don’t listen to a skinny doctor. They have no clue what they are talking about, and cannot possibly know how to counsel or treat an overweight person. If it were so easy to eat right and get proper exercise, there would not be a weight problem in the USA. The fact that 50% of the population is now overweight means the issue is far deeper than any flip answer that any smart-ass doctor-wannbe can make up. -john- — Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com

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All people who are obese have a discovered or undiscovered genetic predisposition to obesity. Barbara Hirsch, Publisher OBESITY MEDS AND RESEARCH NEWS The latest in obesity research and weight loss drug development http://www.obesity-news.com/

That can’t be right, surely? Even if it were a minority, some must be obese just through overeating and not moving enough? I would certainly have put myself in the bone idle category. Rachael

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Cite please.

Response:

Yes, *some* people have genetic problems, but only two or three percent (and this is borne out by the fact that many countries *do* have a 2-3% 5 to 6 percent of the population has one or more mutations of the melanocortin-4 receptor (MC4R), the largest monogenic cause of obesity. There are other rarer genetic mutations, like defective leptin receptor or leptin deficiency.

So giving them leptin should make a lot of difference, right? If this is the case, please provide the evidence. In all cases, even in the most severe genetic problems, eating less and exercising more will lead to weight loss and better health. Individuals with leptin mutations will not be normal weight regardless, nor will the fertility issues be alleviated by diet. Depending on the severity of MC4R mutation, some individuals may be able to maintain normal weight with a lot of dedication. All people who are obese have a discovered or undiscovered genetic predisposition to obesity.

Invoking the idea of an "undiscovered " genetic factor and waving the concept of "predisposition" around one can claim that any behavior whatsoever is genetic. Like, "Everyone who is fit at the age of fifty has some undiscovered genetic predisposition to run a lot." So what? Are you looking to get better or find absolution? As if anyone cares whether you feel justified or not. Health is good; crippled and ugly is bad. Neither are the ultimate in goodness or badness but no decent/sane person would casually chose badness. If you guys would only listen better to what you are saying. Lots of fat acceptors tell us that losing fat is so incredibly difficult, that your bodies struggle to hang onto fat content even to the extent of burning up essential muscle mass first and even to the extent of putting you into a low-energy starvation mode if you try to burn any of your stored fat. What is fat for if you cannot use it in a good way for energy utilization??? If rolls of fat around your middle cannot be good even for calorie storage/utilization then it is a truly pathological outcome — something really bad and mal-adaptive – something that nature would never do to someone to help them survive – the opposite of fitness in other words. I do not know about you, but this does not sound like something to "acept." However, environment also plays a role. And – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if individuals who gain weight easily will moderate food intake and exercise, they will lose weight, and may even become normal weight with enough dedication. However, in all cases they will be better off doing something than nothing. Barbara Hirsch, Publisher OBESITY MEDS AND RESEARCH NEWS The latest in obesity research and weight loss drug development http://www.obesity-news.com/

Response:

So giving them leptin should make a lot of difference, right? If this is the case, please provide the evidence.

Giving leptin deficient people leptin completely resolves the obesity and the fertility problems, however, individuals with leptin receptor mutations are not helped by recombinant leptin. They already produce leptin, but it is not taken up by the mutated receptor. References: Congenital leptin deficiency due to homozygosity for the Delta133G mutation: report of another case and evaluation of response to four years of leptin therapy. Gibson WT, et al. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Oct;89(10):4821-6. Phenotypic effects of leptin replacement on morbid obesity, diabetes mellitus, hypogonadism, and behavior in leptin-deficient adults. Licinio J, et al. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2004 Mar 30;101(13):4531-6. Epub 2004 Mar 09. Full text available: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/101/13/4531 Beneficial effects of leptin on obesity, T cell hyporesponsiveness, and neuroendocrine/metabolic dysfunction of human congenital leptin deficiency. Farooqi IS, et al. J Clin Invest. 2002 Oct;110(8):1093-103. Full text available: http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/110/8/1093 Effects of recombinant leptin therapy in a child with congenital leptin deficiency. Farooqi IS, et al. N Engl J Med. 1999 Sep 16;341(12):879-84. See also: Monogenic human obesity syndromes. Farooqi IS, et al. Recent Prog Horm Res. 2004;59:409-24. Obesity due to proopiomelanocortin deficiency: three new cases and treatment trials with thyroid hormone and ACTH4-10. Krude H, et al. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Oct;88(10):4633-40. There are many others, but these should be sufficient. Leptin deficiency is very rare. There are probably fewer than 100 people in whom this has been discovered. I have access to all the articles above. If you want me to shoot you a copy of any or all of them, send me your e-mail addy. Address above is fake, but you will get autoresponder with real address by writing it. Invoking the idea of an "undiscovered " genetic factor and waving the concept of "predisposition" around one can claim that any behavior whatsoever is genetic.

And in the future we’re probably going to discover those genetic factors. The fact is that some people can eat anything they want and never gain and ounce, while others only need to eat a few calories over metabolic rate and gain — even if physical activity between the two groups is the same. The difference between the two? Genetics. Like, "Everyone who is fit at the age of fifty has some undiscovered genetic predisposition to run a lot."

Huh? So what? Are you looking to get better or find absolution? As if anyone cares whether you feel justified or not. Health is good;

I wasn’t debating the point with you, you’re preaching to the choir. I personally exercise in excess of 10 hours a week and weigh 124 pounds after having lost close to 90 pounds in 1996-1997. fat acceptors tell us that losing fat is so incredibly difficult, that your bodies struggle to hang onto fat content even to the extent of burning up essential muscle mass first and even to the extent of putting you into a low-energy starvation mode if you try to burn any of your stored fat.

If you exercise you will lose little if any lean muscle mass, especially if you pump iron. Strength training preserves and grows lean muscle mass, and aerobic activity burns fat. The above and a 500 kcal deficit should result in dramatic weight loss in most individuals, especially if you are very overweight. I do not know about you, but this does not sound like something to "acept."

Well, now you do, and know that it is not something I "accept". Barbara Hirsch, Publisher OBESITY MEDS AND RESEARCH NEWS The latest in obesity research and weight loss drug development http://www.obesity-news.com/

Response:

I am not interested in searching your other messages. Post the pertinent cite(s) in a reply to this message.

Sorry, if you’re too dumb to be able to scroll down, or look for my messages under this thread, there isn’t any hope for you anyway. Barbara Hirsch, Publisher OBESITY MEDS AND RESEARCH NEWS The latest in obesity research and weight loss drug development http://www.obesity-news.com/

Response:

serious derangement in appetite control with subsequent obesity. But it cannot be said that garden-variety obesity is due to leptin receptor resistance.

I never said that it did. In fact I said that it was exceedingly rare. You asked me for cites, and I provided them. Giving Vit C to someone with scurvy will effect a dramatic, obvious cure. Giving vit C to someone without scurvy produces nothing at all that is not subject to continuuing controversy as to whether it exists or not.

And your point is? First of all, it has been shown, over and over again, that self reporting of food intake is of no value. Fat people lie a lot.

Depends on the study. If you’re an in-patient food intake is controlled, if it’s out patient, then it’s less reliable. Most studies, and practically all long term studies, are out-patient. If you exercise you will lose little if any lean muscle mass, especially if you pump iron. Strength training preserves and grows lean muscle mass, and aerobic activity burns fat. Very true and very important. I wish that some on this ng would acknowledge this instead of complaining that weight loss is impossible without ruining their bodies.

Well, you’re posting to several newsgroups. I’m answering from alt.support.diet. So there isn’t anyone in this group who has given up on the idea of improving health through diet and exercise. Barbara Hirsch, Publisher OBESITY MEDS AND RESEARCH NEWS The latest in obesity research and weight loss drug development http://www.obesity-news.com/

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