Diabetes Talking

Question:

Alien, alI request is that, when you post, you add that you are managing to eat pasta and other carbohydrates through the use of a sulfonylurea that overworks your pancreas and will in all likelihood lead to insulin dependence within six years. If you wish, stop the sulfonylurea, eat pasta, test yourself, and report back to the group. Meanwhile, your comments about eating pasta must be qualified by the fact that you are using a pill that has future consequences in order to be able to get good readings now. Susie

Response:

George Elting writes:

: I think that’s a great idea and it works ok for newsreaders that : allow different sig files in different newsgroups (mine does). It’s a : bit harder for folks with services like AOL which don’t support all : the fancy stuff… Hello George! I believe you are new here!  I am old … You have a cute smile … )  - Susie

Response:

OK then I’ll ask that whenever you post about the benefits of low carb eating that you mention that some people think that it leads to kidney damage.  You do that and I’ll always mention the glucotrol, but then guess what in most of my posts I do I don’t see you ever mentioning the possible kidney damage. Alien, alI request is that, when you post, you add that you are managing to eat pasta and other carbohydrates through the use of a sulfonylurea that overworks your pancreas and will in all likelihood lead to insulin dependence within six years. If you wish, stop the sulfonylurea, eat pasta, test yourself, and report back to the group. Meanwhile, your comments about eating pasta must be qualified by the fact that you are using a pill that has future consequences in order to be able to get good readings now. Susie

Just another DeadHead Computer Nerd

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Burton Strauss writes: << Maybe for you.  I’m fine up to about 60 gm of carbohydrate from pasta. It’s a case where your body reacts differently.   Burton, aren’t you a type 1? Less than 1/10 of diabetics are type 1’s. I think it is helpful when we identify ourselves as to type. Insulin-resistant type 2’s have great difficulty including processed grains in their diet. I think it confuses new members when type 1’s speak as if it is all an individual reaction, when for the most part it is the lack of insulin resistance among type 1’s that accounts for their ability to handle a grain-based diet. Susie (type 2 a long time … diet alone … last week’s HbA1c 5.9 where lab normal is 4.4 – 6.4

Nope T2 (non-ketoic),  DX 8/98 at 215 lbs, HgbA1c of 14.6.  C-Peptide in the normal range.  I’m as T2 as they get! Now 175lbs, latest HgbA1c is 4.9 (lab normal 6.0) (or 5.8 ULN 6.5 – pick the lab you like). I’m as type 2 as they get.  The thing I do that you don’t is I do exercise.  EVERY DAY.  30 minutes of walking or biking or whatever. Plus lots of extra walking and stuff on the weekends (even did some concrete work last weekend – quite a change for a computer guy). Let’s keep the choices we make here clear.  I exercise and eat carbs. You do the couch potato routine and low-carb. Both appear to work for us.  I’m not asking you to change – that’s a choice you make.  But I do think that your constant recommendations of low carb as the only way to go are at best disingenuous at best, unless you give the full picture. —–Burton —– On the ‘net, everybody knows you’re a cat.      AND On the ‘net, everybody knows your cat.

Response:

First I said I’m on the lowest dose.  I haven’t increased that dose since January when my BG’s were running around 150 to 200.  The Glucotrol brought my BG’s down from 250 + to the 150 – 200 range. Diet and exercise have brought them down to normal.  And I doubt that the glucotrol has much effect on my evening meal as I take it before bedtime and the drug lasts from 16 to 20 hours. Getting readings as low as I am at the dosage of Glucotrol that I take is pretty damn good and there is nothing wrong with using Glucotrol to control blood sugars.  It is certainly better than letting them run too high.  Not everyone will choose to follow your low-carb diet. There are other ways to handle this disease. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Deadhead writes: << I had pasta this evening along with stuffed salmon and salad … In fairness I must admit I’m on Glucotrol XL … I think new members should know there are many possibilities for treating their diabetes. And I offer the same advice to you, Deadhead. It confuses new members when diabetics post that they can eat pasta and other foods and not have a problem. If you would be sure to mention each time you make a statement like that that you are taking a sulfonylurea, which masks your diabetic reaction to pasta.  You see yourself as a diabetic who can handle pasta who just happens to be on a sulf; I see you as a diabetic who must take a sulf in order to eat pasta. When you go off the Glucotrol, please try pasta again, then report back. Susie

Just another DeadHead Computer Nerd

Response:

 I think that’s a great idea and it works ok for newsreaders that allow different sig files in different newsgroups (mine does). It’s a bit harder for folks with services like AOL which don’t support all the fancy stuff… Burton, aren’t you a type 1? Less than 1/10 of diabetics are type 1’s. I think it is helpful when we identify ourselves as to type.

 Type 2, Glucophage, diet and exercise  Since March 1998

Response:

Mick Brown writes:

<< Eating a high carb very low fat & very low protin meal tends to give me some hypoglycemic symptoms and a 1hr PP reading of 90 or so and a 2hr PP reading in the 80s. My peaks seem to occur about 30 to 45 minutes PP and are modest 150s and 160s at present. What messes up my bG readings are high fat meals. These have kept my readings in the 140s for up to 10 hours. Mick, my reaction to carbs is very fast too. I was foolish and ate a dish of fettucine alfredo last year and the reaction hit me like a sledgehammer before I had even finished the meal. It was like amphetamines (adrenalin kicking in when the insulin skyrocketed). You have something else going on here, and I suspect it is an imperfect recall about your testing. If you ate nothing but a plate of shimmering fat (sounds gross, the but farmers in Yorkshire do it), your blood glucose wouldn’t budge, I would bet. I believe what is happening is that you are eating a lot of carbohydrates along with the fat. The fat dampens the response to the carbohydrates so they don’t climb as high as a pure-carb meal – but the impact lasts longer. If you are getting readings in the 140s 10 hours after a mixed meal, and since you indicated a *fasting* reading of over 200 10 years ago, I suspect that your postprandial readings following a high-carb meal are in the 200-300 range. I do not believe that you could have 1-hour postprandials in the 80-90 range following a carb-only meal and still be in the 140s 10 hours after a meal which included fat. In short, I think there was a flaw in the timing or accuracy of some initial blood testing, that you formed a theory early on that fat is the culprit, and that nothing is going to disabuse you of that notion. I believe the last time I responded to your post, you claimed that you could eat "five pounds of sugar" and not have any glucose spike, but even a morsel of fat would send you sky-high. As I said the last time, what you describe is not diabetes – and I seriously doubt that it describes your body’s response to food. Maybe if you give the group more info, someone can offer a satisfactory explanation of your body’s strange behavior, Mick. How often to you test your blood? What was your most recent HbA1c reading? Susie

Response:

Didn’t both of posters who could eat pasta say that they had salad with it?

Wouldn’t that bring the glycemic index of the meal down somewhat?<< The conventional wisdom I’ve read indicates that a bare-naked serving of pasta, potatoes, white bread, or any other starch/not-too-complex carbohydrate is relatively easier to digest than proteins and fats – so what the Conventional Wisdom suggests  is to not eat bare-naked simple carbs. Eat them in conjunction with protein and/or fat. No simple baked potato, but rather a baked potato with cheese, butter, and/or sour cream. Bread with peanut butter. Pasta with meat sauce. The idea, I believe, is to slow down the digesting of the easily-digestible carbs with slowly digested other stuff. Mind you, if you’re on a very restricted diet, adding stuff back to slow things down in may add more calories than the diet calls for, so the conventional wisdom would suggest avoiding too many carbs in the first place. But the idea is, no fast digesting. According to the Conventional Wisdom, at least. (I’ve eaten a fair-sized potato, with butter, as a side dish to baked chicken and veggies. No significant change in BG. I’ve eaten  pasta as a side dish to a meal, no significant changes. I’ve eaten whiter-than-white bread, ditto. The only problem I’ve had was that bowl of granola with a sliced banana for breakfast one day, no protein, no fats; fast road to a sugar high it was. . . ) Alban

Response:

Deadhead writes:

<< I had pasta this evening along with stuffed salmon and salad … In fairness I must admit I’m on Glucotrol XL … I think new members should know there are many possibilities for treating their diabetes. And I offer the same advice to you, Deadhead. It confuses new members when diabetics post that they can eat pasta and other foods and not have a problem. If you would be sure to mention each time you make a statement like that that you are taking a sulfonylurea, which masks your diabetic reaction to pasta.  You see yourself as a diabetic who can handle pasta who just happens to be on a sulf; I see you as a diabetic who must take a sulf in order to eat pasta. When you go off the Glucotrol, please try pasta again, then report back. Susie

Response:

Alban writes:

<< (I’ve eaten a fair-sized potato, with butter, as a side dish to baked chicken and veggies. No significant change in BG. I’ve eaten  pasta as a side dish to a meal, no significant changes. I’ve eaten whiter-than-white bread, ditto. The only problem I’ve had was that bowl of granola with a sliced banana for breakfast one day, no protein, no fats; fast road to a sugar high it was. . . ) It could be a function of how long after eating you are testing. The fats in the meals slow mask the carb hit – it is gentler, but lasts longer. Susie

Response:

(Alban) writes: I’ve eaten  pasta as a side dish to a meal, no significant changes. I’ve eaten whiter-than-white bread, ditto. The only problem I’ve had was that bowl of granola with a sliced banana for breakfast one day, no protein, no fats; fast road to a sugar high it was. . . )

Back when diabetics were put on "Exchange List" diets, one TABLESPOON of granola was equal to 1 slice of bread or 1 small potato.  A whole bowl of it would be similar to a loaf of bread <g no wonder your bgs skyrocketed. Marilyn

Response:

Deadhead writes: << I had pasta this evening along with stuffed salmon and salad … In fairness I must admit I’m on Glucotrol XL … I think new members should know there are many possibilities for treating their diabetes. And I offer the same advice to you, Deadhead. It confuses new members when diabetics post that they can eat pasta and other foods and not have a problem. If you would be sure to mention each time you make a statement like that that you are taking a sulfonylurea, which masks your diabetic reaction to pasta.  You see yourself as a diabetic who can handle pasta who just happens to be on a sulf; I see you as a diabetic who must take a sulf in order to eat pasta. When you go off the Glucotrol, please try pasta again, then report back.

I am a type 2. I was Dx with a fasting reading of 201 mg/dl == 11.2 mmol/L and a 2+ or 3+ glucosuria reading about 10 years ago at age 36. I’ve been on diet alone almost all that time, and the only time I took meds was 500mg of glucophage daily for about 4 months (dec 98 to mar 99). I’ve been running 80 to 100 1-2hr PP and 110 to 130 fasting since I quit the glucophage. I quit because the glucophage was causing adrenergic and neuroglycopenic symptoms. I fit what I remember of the syndrome X profiles:   Low HDL, high LDL, normal total cholesterol high triglycerides,     slightly high blood pressure,   android obesity (also known as pot belly). My mother’s side is 50 to 100% diabetic depending on line, the remainder (thinner ones) seem to have dislipidemia or hypoglycemia. The insulin users generally were on sulfonureas for over 10 years some as long as 30 years and take 40 to 80 units of insulin for bG control which I believe indicates insulin resistance. So I’m probably hyperinsulinemic and insulin resistant. Eating a high carb very low fat & very low protin meal tends to give me some hypoglycemic symptoms and a 1hr PP reading of 90 or so and a 2hr PP reading in the 80s. My peaks seem to occur about 30 to 45 minutes PP and are modest 150s and 160s at present. What messes up my bG readings are high fat meals. These have kept my readings in the 140s for up to 10 hours. Diabetes mellitus is not a disease, it is a name for certain kinds of symptoms of various disorders that result in hyperglycemia. I seem to be more sensitive to dietary fat than carbohydrates, you and many others seem to be the other way. I have searched various diabetes related topics in http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ PubMed literature index and found citations for lots of different things going on behind the scenes of type two diabetes and insulin resistance. I didn’t locate anything confirming statements in m.h.d that type 2 is 40 different diseases, but the PubMed abstracts imply at least 6 different factors: glucose toxicity, liver dumping, pancreatic insufficiency, hypertriglyceridemia, cell wall insulin receptor problems, intracellular problems at the ribosomes. This probably incomplete list gives 720 different possible combinations of factors behind type two symptoms. There seems to be evidence that lowering carbohydrates helps many people. But it isn’t the only solution… and it may not provide much benefit for some. YMMV. — Mick Brown Please visit the Pro Internet Forum http://www.delphi.com/pro_internet My address is unmangled, I report spam and get the senders’ accounts yanked I registered at http://www.SafeEPS.com Email Preference Service   and said *NO* *SPAM* at all for me.

Response:

 I have discovered that for me it’s not what I eat but how much I eat.  My BG’s have improved in proportion to my weight loss.  Not everyone has to give up carbs to beat this disease.

Everything I’ve read indicates that for those of us who do have some weight to lose, losing weight is The Way to lower insulin resistance.  That your bgs have improved in proportion to your weight loss makes perfect sense.  (I posted a fairly lengthy article earlier today which discussed the whys and wherefores of that phenomenon.)  In that case, whatever works for an individual to lose weight is likely to lower their bgs and improve their insulin resistance, which is the whole point, after all. For me, a low carb diet is the only thing I’ve been able to stay on for any length of time, so it is my weight loss program of choice.  I suspect that I am VERY insulin resistant — I simply cannot eat pasta and pizza without undergoing massive bg rise.   But even at that, if I could devise a weight loss program that I could stay on for a length of time, I might be inclined to put up with a little higher blood sugars for a while (or else treat them with meds as you are doing) while I lost weight.  Unfortunately, for me, that’s not possible.  Carbohydrates and I don’t agree with one another.  I envy people like you who can do well on such a program, frankly.   My personal impulse would be to see lowcarbing as a "court of last resort" when nothing else is working or you really don’t want to do meds.  And while I think there are advantages to not doing meds, I think it’s a personal call. Wendy

Response:

Didn’t both of posters who could eat pasta say that they had salad with it? Wouldn’t that bring the glycemic index of the meal down somewhat?  (Most high GI foods are very low in fiber.) What thinks the rest of you? -D

Response:

Burton Strauss writes:

<< Maybe for you.  I’m fine up to about 60 gm of carbohydrate from pasta. It’s a case where your body reacts differently.   Burton, aren’t you a type 1? Less than 1/10 of diabetics are type 1’s. I think it is helpful when we identify ourselves as to type. Insulin-resistant type 2’s have great difficulty including processed grains in their diet. I think it confuses new members when type 1’s speak as if it is all an individual reaction, when for the most part it is the lack of insulin resistance among type 1’s that accounts for their ability to handle a grain-based diet. Susie (type 2 a long time … diet alone … last week’s HbA1c 5.9 where lab normal is 4.4 – 6.4

Response:

Burton Strauss writes: << Maybe for you.  I’m fine up to about 60 gm of carbohydrate from pasta. It’s a case where your body reacts differently.   Burton, aren’t you a type 1? Less than 1/10 of diabetics are type 1’s. I think it is helpful when we identify ourselves as to type. Insulin-resistant type 2’s have great difficulty including processed grains in their diet. I think it confuses new members when type 1’s speak as if it is all an individual reaction, when for the most part it is the lack of insulin resistance among type 1’s that accounts for their ability to handle a grain-based diet.

That may be but some type two’s do just fine on pasta’s.  I had pasta this evening along with stuffed salmon and salad.  Before dinner my BG’s were 85 and 2 hours later they were 95.  I’m able to eat most any food I want as long as it’s in reasonable quantities.  I have discovered that for me it’s not what I eat but how much I eat.  My BG’s have improved in proportion to my weight loss.  Not everyone has to give up carbs to beat this disease. I think new members should know there are many possibilities for treating their diabetes.  Low-carb is definitely one of those ways, but it is not the only one. In fairness I must admit I’m on Glucotrol XL but it is the lowest dose and as soon as my latest HbA1c that was taken Monday comes back that may stop.  Even with the Glucotrol my BG’s were much higher 20 pounds ago. The drug brought them down from the mid 200’s to the high 100’s. The change to almost no readings over 120 has come about because of weigh loss. Just another DeadHead Computer Nerd

Response:

What are the best types of pasta to choose? Thanks

I find the spaghetti noodles made from jerusalem artichokes work good for me.  My readings tend to go up a little higher than with other meals when I eat spaghetti but not so bad as to be a problem.  Try different kinds of pasta and see what works for you.  I always have a large salad and if I’m eating at home where I have some control I use less pasta and more sauce.   I have found a great little Italian restaurant in town that serves a lasagna that doesn’t seem bad on my BG’s at all.  It has lots of sauce, cheese and a thin layer of pasta at the bottom. Just another DeadHead Computer Nerd

Response:

Oh, how right you are Susie… and it will never cease to amaze me at the unbeknownst denial that many diabetics are consumed with. If you (in many cases) "inherited" your condition through your insistence on feeding your face with the "diet from hell," why should you change now? "Screw life! I’ll be damned if I give up my pasta, or anything else that I want to hold onto." Never give yucky foods such as greens (terrific for their slow sugar release due to fiber bundling) a second thought! Let’s concentrate on snake oil fixes such as ingesting cornstarch at bedtime to keep sugar high enough through the night. For crying out loud… must we toss good nutrition out the window simply because it doesn’t suit our spoiled little tastebuds? Oh, pass me that Snickers and Coke and shut up!

Response:

If I have to give up everything I like in the world then I might as well die so I guess I’ll just keep on feeding my spoiled little taste buds.  But just so you know I have continued to eat foods I like and lost 20 lbs since december and I intend to lose more.  I intend to do it with out depriving myself just so as soon as I lose the weight I can gain it all back because I feel so deprived.   Eat whatever diet you want and I’m glad it works for you.  Your way is not the only way. My way works for me. Carbohydrates are good nutrition and there is nothing wrong with pasta.  It should be a side dish served with salad and maybe a tofu steak (meat for you non-veggies) not served the way most restaurants do where it fills the entire plate. Oh, how right you are Susie… and it will never cease to amaze me at the unbeknownst denial that many diabetics are consumed with. If you (in many cases) "inherited" your condition through your insistence on feeding your face with the "diet from hell," why should you change now? "Screw life! I’ll be damned if I give up my pasta, or anything else that I want to hold onto." Never give yucky foods such as greens (terrific for their slow sugar release due to fiber bundling) a second thought! Let’s concentrate on snake oil fixes such as ingesting cornstarch at bedtime to keep sugar high enough through the night. For crying out loud… must we toss good nutrition out the window simply because it doesn’t suit our spoiled little tastebuds? Oh, pass me that Snickers and Coke and shut up!

Just another DeadHead Computer Nerd

Response:

sspolak writes: << What are the best types of pasta to choose? Answer is none of the above. Pasta is one of the most problemmatic foods for diabetics, making our glucose levels take off into the stratosphere.

Maybe for you.  I’m fine up to about 60 gm of carbohydrate from pasta. It’s a case where your body reacts differently.  Plus there are pastas made from high and low glycemic index grains, which some people will react to drastically differently. The right answer is to try it and see. Measure your bG before, 1 hour, 2 hours and 3 hours after the meal. You should see a rise, and then falling back towards the starting value.  If you see a huge spike (over 150), then reduce the quantity of carbohydrate… —–Burton —– On the ‘net, everybody knows you’re a cat.      AND On the ‘net, everybody knows your cat.

Response:

<< … Never give yucky foods such as greens (terrific for their slow sugar release due to fiber bundling) a second thought! Let’s concentrate on snake oil fixes such as ingesting cornstarch at bedtime to keep sugar high enough through the night. For crying out loud… must we toss good nutrition out the window simply because it doesn’t suit our spoiled little tastebuds? Oh, pass me that Snickers and Coke and shut up! Your post made me giggle! It is a wonder to me how people talk of dealing with diabetes by eating more things, when 90-95 percent of type 2’s are obese upon diagnosis. It takes awhile for newly-diagnosed diabetics to understand how simple, and yet how revolutionary, must the changes be in their eating habits. If we can just imagine ourselves back before everything was so "processed," that is more the way we should be eating … foods that are not all smushed up and overcooked. The longer I am diabetic, the more I subscribe to the notion that many of us humans have not evolved to consume ta highly-processed, grains-based diet that manufacturers offer – at least not living a sedentary lifestyle (sometimes due to age or accumulating health problems). But it is an actual deep-seated fear at work too … human survival instincts kicking in. As we are slipping into diabetes, our glucose levels are on a rollercoaster ride. When we go too low, our bodies quickly figure that it was those fast carbos that brought our numbers up the last time, so that is what they demand we eat. Those fast carbs become incredible comfort foods – like an addiction. Anyone who suggests they must give them up is in for a fight! But I’m so grateful that diabetics find this and other online groups … the level of knowledge among diabetics has taken a giant leap forward in just the past few years. Susie

Response:

What are the best types of pasta to choose? Thanks

Response:

If you have to ask then you have problems. For many diabetics pasta is a no no. Try this:  eat yourself a big meal of plain pasta.   Test your  bg fasting before.   1 hour after and 2 hours after.  If those bg levels don’t scare the hell out of you.  Then you may be one of the lucky few that can carb up with no problem.

Response:

Spagetti has a lower GI than other types of pasta, possibly because of its higher gluten content. Unfortunately "diabetic" spagetti is not available, although it may be possible to make this yourself, with a pasta machine – just add extra gluten, and methylcellulose to the mix….

Response:

sspolak writes:

<< What are the best types of pasta to choose? Answer is none of the above. Pasta is one of the most problemmatic foods for diabetics, making our glucose levels take off into the stratosphere. Susie

Response: